Waiver to IHSA Multiplier?

[Titanfan89]

Get a load of this. Possible good news for QND.

All eight proposals on the ballot in the annual Illinois High School Association (IHSA) member school referendum were approved in voting by the membership last month. The online ballots were tabulated and certified in the IHSA Office Tuesday (Jan. 12). All the by-law changes take effect on July 1, 2010.....

Proposal 8 (passed 255-175) provides for a process by which a non-boundaried school may apply to have the 1.65 enrollment multiplier waived. The process will be established by the IHSA Board of Directors with input from a subcommittee composed of members of IHSA staff and the IHSA Legislative Commission

Interesting proposal that got passed by member schools. 54.8% of IHSA schools voted in this ballot/referendum (55% voter turnout), and it passed with a 59% majority of those 54.8% of schools.

http://www.ihsa.org/announce/2009-10/2010-01-12.htm

[fanofthegame]

I read this elsewhere and I was hesitant to post it here in fear that we would end up beating the same dead horse that we beat on the khqa boards. Since you brought it up though, depending on what the criteria is for receiving a waiver, I think it is a great idea. This could potentially solve some of the problems I have with the multiplier. I'll post more detailed thoughts later.

[Titanfan89]

I wonder what the conditions are for the IHSA to grant such a waiver.

[PhotoGuy]

Titan, can you do me a favor?

We have readers here that may not be familiar with the multiplier and what it mean to schools like QND. Can you or one of our other readers give a brief explanation about what the rule is, and why QND is considered "bigger" than it really is because of it?

[Titanfan89]

I can give a little information but QND fans know more about it than I do probably. Back about what, 5-7 years ago, the IHSA introduced a rule for "non-boundaried" schools which required them to multiply their actual school enrollment by a factor that I still believe is 1.65. For athletic competitions, in order to determine classes, the "non-boundaried" schools would have to use their "multiplied" enorllment figure instead of their actual enrollment figure. This is why QND was playing in 3A most of the time until this year. It was done primarily for those schools who did not have fixed boundaried school districts and could get whoever they wanted to come to their school, granted the tuition was paid for. Primarily, it was for schools probably in the large metro areas, such as Chicago. But it applies to all "non-boundaried" schools, and that is what QND is, even though their primary boudary is the Quincy area. It was thought that such schools had advantages over "boundaried" schools, so that is why it was implemented, as voted on by the IHSA membership, most of which are "boundaried" schools.

I hope that helps.

[fanofthegame]

From what I understand they haven't been established yet. I have a couple of thoughts on what they could posibly be. The reason for the multiplier is the advantage private schools have of being able draw students from within a 30 mile radius. With this being the case, the logical case in which the IHSA would grant a waiver in my mind, would be for a private school that does not have any students from outside of the school district that the school is in. I would like to see this go further though. Here is what I would grant a waiver for:
1) any non boundaried school that does not have any athletes from outside of the public school district in which the school sits (this would be my criteria if the waivers are being granted by school)
2) any team at a non boundaried school that does not have any players from outside of the public school district in which the school sits (this would be my criteria if waivers were handed out by individual sports)

My line of thinking is simple. Private schools have a POTENTIAL advantage in that students from other school districts can choose to attend. However, if no students from other school districts do attend, there is no reason to multiply a school when the advantage is non existent. For instance, I was a junior when the multiplier was implemented, and I played golf at QND. At the time I believe there were 6 total athletes at QND from outside of the Quincy School District. None of those students played golf on the JV or Varsity level. those athletes were involved in football, girls basketball, softball and possibly 1 or 2 other sports. I can't remember off the top of my head. I would be ok with all of those sports receiving the multiplier as they benefitted from students that could be helping other area schools. Our golf team however had none of those students. We were all from quincy and had all attended Quincy Catholic grade schools. We has a pretty special team that year and during the season we beat Camp Point Central head to head several times and beat Peoria Christian. Those two teams finished 1st and 2nd in the class A state finals while we were shipped to one of the toughest 2A sectionals in the state to compete with the likes of Edwardsville and QHS. I don't mean for this to be some kind of sob story because it is what it is at this point. My hope though is that these waivers will allow private school teams that do NOT have talent from other school districts to compete without the multiplier.

[fanofthegame]

The multiplier was implemented because private schools were having an extreme amount of success in the state tournament series. Private schools if I'm not mistaken make up around 20 percent of IHSA member schools (that is a rough estimate) but they were winning more state titles than that 20% suggested they should. If the research was done to show regional and sectional success Im sure those numbers would have shown the same thing. The multiplier as titan said is set at 1.65 for all non boundaried schools. Some other versions of the multiplier were suggested, but the blanket 1.65 number was accepted. The interesting thing is that the multiplier largely came about because of football succes by private schools and I think most would agree that football has been the sport least affected by the multiplier. The 4 class system has taken some of the affect of the multiplier and diluted them, but the debate is one that won't ever end. Extremists on one side believe non boundaried schools should be forced to play in a separate state tournament and the other side of course argues that no multiplier should exist at all.

[Titanfan89]

I think some states actually do have separate tournaments for private and public schools. I don't know if that would work in Illinois but interesting to think about.

[Titanfan89]

Oops I forgot, I haven't rang by "QND IS RECRUITING" bell today. Sorry Fan, I had to do it. :-)

[bballjunkie1]

This could be very simple to fix in my eyes. If I am not mistaken Renita Bunte was from Payson, why not take Paysons enrollment and add it to whatever sport she participates in. If they have a player from Unity Camp Point whereever. I dont think that the football team should be punished if the girls basketball team has a player from Payson. If QND didnt have the multiplier what sports would it affect?

[guest07]

From what I understand they haven't been established yet. I have a couple of thoughts on what they could posibly be. The reason for the multiplier is the advantage private schools have of being able draw students from within a 30 mile radius. With this being the case, the logical case in which the IHSA would grant a waiver in my mind, would be for a private school that does not have any students from outside of the school district that the school is in. I would like to see this go further though. Here is what I would grant a waiver for:
1) any non boundaried school that does not have any athletes from outside of the public school district in which the school sits (this would be my criteria if the waivers are being granted by school)
2) any team at a non boundaried school that does not have any players from outside of the public school district in which the school sits (this would be my criteria if waivers were handed out by individual sports)

My line of thinking is simple. Private schools have a POTENTIAL advantage in that students from other school districts can choose to attend. However, if no students from other school districts do attend, there is no reason to multiply a school when the advantage is non existent. For instance, I was a junior when the multiplier was implemented, and I played golf at QND. At the time I believe there were 6 total athletes at QND from outside of the Quincy School District. None of those students played golf on the JV or Varsity level. those athletes were involved in football, girls basketball, softball and possibly 1 or 2 other sports. I can't remember off the top of my head. I would be ok with all of those sports receiving the multiplier as they benefitted from students that could be helping other area schools. Our golf team however had none of those students. We were all from quincy and had all attended Quincy Catholic grade schools. We has a pretty special team that year and during the season we beat Camp Point Central head to head several times and beat Peoria Christian. Those two teams finished 1st and 2nd in the class A state finals while we were shipped to one of the toughest 2A sectionals in the state to compete with the likes of Edwardsville and QHS. I don't mean for this to be some kind of sob story because it is what it is at this point. My hope though is that these waivers will allow private school teams that do NOT have talent from other school districts to compete without the multiplier.

While schools like QND may not be drawing students from out of district, don't you think they still have a pretty distinct advantage of being able to draw from a district of 40,000, while other 2A schools are drawing from a district of about 2,000?

I won't necessarily say that I'm 100% in favor of the multiplier, but I think it's a little naive to think that QND doesn't have advantages over other area schools of similar enrollment.

[Titanfan89]

Thats a good point. Their base to draw from is a lot larger than most 2A schools I would think.

[fanofthegame]

Nah. I've never bought that argument. The whole 40,000 people to "draw" from gets me everytime. It's not like QND gets to lineup all the kids in Quincy and handpick the ones they want. There could bee 100 billion people in Quincy and QND could still only play with the 390 some odd students in their hallways, and unfortunately sometimes those students don't even include the best catholic athletes in town.

[Lost Soul]

More fuel for the conversation here. Fan of the game what you suggested for the wavier is fair but probably a total nightmare for enforcement. hard enough with the blanket 1.65, which I think way back when was suggested at maybe 1.5 and later changed, not sure why. Under the fair by fan rule, (known as FBF) the address of each and every kid playing would have to be checked. Kids that live with aunt or uncle, how would they be treated? Exchange students included if living with a host family? I am not PC so in my mind the town of Joliet could have a super team due to the dads all having an address there...think about it. Brown county might even pick up a few kids due to the prison being a home of parents. I know maybe 10 years ago Warsaw thought they were doing the right thing with the kids they had and were I think undefeated going into the sectional. But the IHSA ruled otherwise and they lost the next game. I think this is why the blanket 1.65 for any school was easier to enforce. Not that the rule applied to Warsaw but point being what they thought was ok and correct was later ruled not to be.

What if Renita Bunte had an aunt that lived in Quincy and she gave that address would they beat the system and who would decide if she spent more time at that house or the one in Payson. FBF rules would be great if people didn't try to beat the system.

I'll make it even more confusing. If a kid was NOT catholic and attended QND what would they count as? Lives just outside Quncy but in QHS school district. As far as adding the schools enrolement that some suggested would the enrolement of QHS be added to QND ? Plus even if we worked this all out for this area the same rules would have to apply to Chicago. FBF rules in Chicago would have to have a full time staff in that cesspool. I do understand your point and yes thats fair but who said life is fair?

I do not like the 1.65 rule. I know it was meant for the non stop problems in Chicago. Do I think QND has an advantage, heck yes. Does 1 or 2 kids change there record over the years? Maybe but very few games over the years would have been effected. Renita didn't effect the boys gold team at all.IMO But they could argue that the Joseph kid who played at Central many years ago changed their record. Stuff like this had gone on for more than 50 years here in Illinois. Was it fair ,by rules yes plus it gave everyone a team to beat. I see nothing wrong with that family moving to the area, was good for him also. I hope the yankees lose every baseball game because they are the team to beat. Central was the team to beat back then, QND is sometimes. Stuff happens. But I will admit the 1.65 rule or some form of it is needed to keep people form doing it on a year in and year out basis. I don't have a better way, but look farward to others views on here to see if great minds can solve this.

[cardsfan]

A couple of questions pop into my mind here:

A private school has students from outside school districts who indeed wish to enroll for the high quality, religious education (which I assume is the real case in the vast majority of situations). While enrolled in the private school they wish to play a sport. Turns out they aren't a great athlete--just another player. Wouldn't there potentially be big pressure on the school to deny that student the opportunity to either enroll in the school or at least deny them the chance to play the sport if that school didn't have other students from outside districts playing that sport? I would think these private schools wouldn't want to deal with this sort of pressure. We'll allow the out-of-district player to play a sport if they are great but not if they are only good.

Second question, isn't there also concern that some private schools might have an unfair edge because of their ability to attract students from within their own area? For example, QND could enroll a disproportionate number of good football players from the Quincy school district area--now they aren't bringing in kids from 'other schools' so no multiplier would be used but I think many in the public schools would feel there still might be an unfair advantage even if they are only enrolling students from 'their own district'.

I'm really not arguing for or against, but I do understand why the multiplier is demanded by the public school districts and I'm not sure that the fix proposed here will really satisfy those concerns..............

I believe Missouri has had votes within the MSHSAA member schools about holding seperate championships for private vs. public schools but those have not passed. They also have a multiplier similar to Illinois in place I believe also.

[guest07]

Nah. I've never bought that argument. The whole 40,000 people to "draw" from gets me everytime. It's not like QND gets to lineup all the kids in Quincy and handpick the ones they want. There could bee 100 billion people in Quincy and QND could still only play with the 390 some odd students in their hallways, and unfortunately sometimes those students don't even include the best catholic athletes in town.

I'm not sure which part of it you don't buy. Isn't there the potential to draw from a district of 40,000? You may say "they won't do that", but how do we know?

Besides that, private school kids are priviledged kids. That is an advantage.

[PhotoGuy]

Quincy has a population of 40,366.

It's those extra 366 that make the difference :)

In all seriousness, however, the population within the Quincy School District is about 55,000ish, not 40,000.

[Lost Soul]

I'm not sure which part of it you don't buy. Isn't there the potential to draw from a district of 40,000? You may say "they won't do that", but how do we know?

Besides that, private school kids are priviledged kids. That is an advantage.

They have the potential to draw from plamyra, the whole state of missouri, the whole state of Illinois, exchange students from germany..lets pile it on they are THE largest school in the world!

[guest07]

They have the potential to draw from plamyra, the whole state of missouri, the whole state of Illinois, exchange students from germany..lets pile it on they are THE largest school in the world!

I know you're just being goofy, but I think we're giving the benefit of the doubt by assuming that they will draw only from their district.

[radiowaves]

The question that could use an answer is simply this one. If the non boundaried schools did not have an advantage, and showed it by winning many more state championships, the discussion would never had started with the IHSA about a multiplier. But each of us has to bee very careful. Has your school ever had kids move into the district and they happened to be very good athletes also. In the days of Havana basketball domination in our part of the state, many good ones moved there. Jacksonville had Andy Kaufmann and Rick Conn both move in and a few of the normal names from Routt High School enroll, Collinsville had a few, QHS saw the moving of a young man named Bruce Brothers move from around Columbus in the CPC district to Blue Devil land. But I have to say, whatever the rule in place, some seem to be able to beat it most of the time. I wish each student was confirmed 100% before the post season starts and no looking back. How many times has a Hales Fransican won it all and later we find out a player should not have been allowed. Who suffers? The teams who lost to them who might have had the chance to move on and experience the special things with a run. The four class system has simply allowed the northern schools more trophies to take home in the first two years. Jerry Symons, former owner of WEAI/WLDS in Jacksonville and Hall of Fame announcer, told me once, many should watch out for what they ask for, they might just get it. The proposal at that time was for all non boundaries to be 2A in 2 class system. We quickly realized, using the system in place, Peoria Manual, Jacksonville, all the Springfield schools, Chatham then, Peoria Central and many more would be 1A schools. I do not want a trophy for every one. But I do realize, if you can draw from many areas, like Springfield Sacred Heart GriFFin does, you have a great advantage. Bloomington Central Catholic used to have 125-140 students, but were hard to beat in 1A football, now they still are at the top of 3and 4A. There has to be a reason. QNd has the biggest offensive line I have ever seen many years and a basketball team with more kids over 6-2 than any team around with similar enrollment. Does a solid Catholic education just cause you to grow bigger and taller? I love the schools values, success with academics, sports, music and more. But if you do not think they have an advantage and need some adjustment,

[Lost Soul]

Yes I was being goofy just could not stop myself to pile on a bit. Yellow flag for excessive celebration. But no kidding in the past kids from Palmyra and even Hannibal have gone to QND. Not sure if they played sports but could have, so the potential is there.

[Lost Soul]

Interesting about Kaufmann and Bruce Brothers, never knew that. Didn't see Brothers play or know his stats but was a big name in Quincy basketball. I will not hold it against any kid or family for that matter that wants the best situation for those high school years be it Band, Drama Club or sports. But your right if you lose to them and its your last year in high school and you could have played in the finals, its tough. Like i said don't know the answer.

Love big kids and side note here under the one class basketball system didn't Pittsfield have two twins that were huge and they made it to maybe sweet 16? If I recall they could have gone further. Late 60's or so, so yes big kids , imports or homegrown do make a difference.

[radiowaves]

Anderson twins, I believe went to Rice U. and were around 6'4", kind of big in those days. It is not the 2-3 it is when you have 4-6 over 6'3" on your bench when the other teams are lucky to have one or two every six years, I wonder about. I think around 69-70 with Tom McCartney and more.

[guest07]

I love the schools values, success with acedemics, sports, music and more. But if you do not think they have an advantage and need some adjustment,


That's where I'm at, radiowaves. I've got tremendous respect for the commitment and effort put for by QND parents, faculty and students, but anybody who says that they don't have advantages that public schools don't is living in denial.

[fanofthegame]

The question that could use an answer is simply this one. If the non boundaried schools did not have an advantage, and showed it by winning many more state championships, the discussion would never had started with the IHSA about a multiplier. But each of us has to bee very careful. Has your school ever had kids move into the district and they happened to be very good athletes also. In the days of Havana basketball domination in our part of the state, many good ones moved there. Jacksonville had Andy Kaufmann and Rick Conn both move in and a few of the normal names from Routt High School enroll, Collinsville had a few, QHS saw the moving of a young man named Bruce Brothers move from around Columbus in the CPC district to Blue Devil land. But I have to say, whatever the rule in place, some seem to be able to beat it most of the time. I wish each student was confirmed 100% before the post season starts and no looking back. How many times has a Hales Fransican won it all and later we find out a player should not have been allowed. Who suffers? The teams who lost to them who might have had the chance to move on and experience the special things with a run. The four class system has simply allowed the northern schools more trophies to take home in the first two years. Jerry Symons, former owner of WEAI/WLDS in Jacksonville and Hall of Fame announcer, told me once, many should watch out for what they ask for, they might just get it. The proposal at that time was for all non boundaries to be 2A in 2 class system. We quickly realized, using the system in place, Peoria Manual, Jacksonville, all the Springfield schools, Chatham then, Peoria Central and many more would be 1A schools. I do not want a trophy for every one. But I do realize, if you can draw from many areas, like Springfield Sacred Heart GriFFin does, you have a great advantage. Bloomington Central Catholic used to have 125-140 students, but were hard to beat in 1A football, now they still are at the top of 3and 4A. There has to be a reason. QNd has the biggest offensive line I have ever seen many years and a basketball team with more kids over 6-2 than any team around with similar enrollment. Does a solid Catholic education just cause you to grow bigger and taller? I love the schools values, success with academics, sports, music and more. But if you do not think they have an advantage and need some adjustment,

I don't think anyone is arguing that private schools don't have an advantage waves. As far as the QND basketball team goes though, they may have some height this year, but last year they started a 6'2 center and mike lieber at 6'1 was their other post defender. Height goes in cycles and this is the first year in the past 4 or 5 that it has been on QND's side. BTW of the guys 6'2 or taller on this years team Cramsey went to St. Francis, Peters, Keating and Rakers went to St. Peters. Maybe the catholic grade schools have something in the water?

[fanofthegame]

More fuel for the conversation here. Fan of the game what you suggested for the wavier is fair but probably a total nightmare for enforcement. hard enough with the blanket 1.65, which I think way back when was suggested at maybe 1.5 and later changed, not sure why. Under the fair by fan rule, (known as FBF) the address of each and every kid playing would have to be checked. Kids that live with aunt or uncle, how would they be treated? Exchange students included if living with a host family? I am not PC so in my mind the town of Joliet could have a super team due to the dads all having an address there...think about it. Brown county might even pick up a few kids due to the prison being a home of parents. I know maybe 10 years ago Warsaw thought they were doing the right thing with the kids they had and were I think undefeated going into the sectional. But the IHSA ruled otherwise and they lost the next game. I think this is why the blanket 1.65 for any school was easier to enforce. Not that the rule applied to Warsaw but point being what they thought was ok and correct was later ruled not to be.

What if Renita Bunte had an aunt that lived in Quincy and she gave that address would they beat the system and who would decide if she spent more time at that house or the one in Payson. FBF rules would be great if people didn't try to beat the system.

I'll make it even more confusing. If a kid was NOT catholic and attended QND what would they count as? Lives just outside Quncy but in QHS school district. As far as adding the schools enrolement that some suggested would the enrolement of QHS be added to QND ? Plus even if we worked this all out for this area the same rules would have to apply to Chicago. FBF rules in Chicago would have to have a full time staff in that cesspool. I do understand your point and yes thats fair but who said life is fair?

I do not like the 1.65 rule. I know it was meant for the non stop problems in Chicago. Do I think QND has an advantage, heck yes. Does 1 or 2 kids change there record over the years? Maybe but very few games over the years would have been effected. Renita didn't effect the boys gold team at all.IMO But they could argue that the Joseph kid who played at Central many years ago changed their record. Stuff like this had gone on for more than 50 years here in Illinois. Was it fair ,by rules yes plus it gave everyone a team to beat. I see nothing wrong with that family moving to the area, was good for him also. I hope the yankees lose every baseball game because they are the team to beat. Central was the team to beat back then, QND is sometimes. Stuff happens. But I will admit the 1.65 rule or some form of it is needed to keep people form doing it on a year in and year out basis. I don't have a better way, but look farward to others views on here to see if great minds can solve this.

You are absolutely right Lot Soul, implementation would be tough, but that is the IHSA's job. You are also right about life not being fair. I am fine with that, but the IHSA isn't. Their line when the multiplier was implmented was that they were "leveling the playing field" in the name of fair play. If they weren't concerned with fairness they never would have made the change.

[radiowaves]

Well it could be the Holy water, or maybe if you get your ear pulled by a nun, ( I say this with respect to discipline-I had nuns for cathecism classes at St. Thomas) it will make you grow. The undersized Raiders is an exception to the rule in my memory. Most years you have had some bigs in your lineup each year. Side note, of the kids who started for Pittsfield in 1991 state champs team, I believe only point guard went all the way through at Pikeland schools. Not all moved for basketball, and the Baker stud was a preachers son who got moved to Pittsfield. So see, religion had something to do with their run also. And today, it is much harder to get the Blab boys caliber to stay with you for a year. Plus the island boys are watched much closer now. Still thought the Warsaw run was better befor e the old coach thought he needed to add players from a couple thousand miles away. Or CPC with Merv.

[bballjunkie1]

I know of a certain school in Pike COunty that has it fair share of local talent walk its hallways. If I am not mistaken, Sweating was not homegrown, we all know the Brawdy problem and Wombles. That is just off the top of my head. QND is not the only school that has accidently had some area talent on their team. Pittsfield won a regional with Brawdy hitting a jumper over GP at the buzzer. Those who dont know, Brawdy grew up in the Stauffer system. Easy to knock QND, but up until 7 years ago Pfield had a few area players on their team. On the girls side they got Johnson and her brothers, which I know they actually live in Pfield now. But i do know they were contacted about moving there.

[fanofthegame]

I'm not sure which part of it you don't buy. Isn't there the potential to draw from a district of 40,000? You may say "they won't do that", but how do we know?

Besides that, private school kids are priviledged kids. That is an advantage.

It has nothing to do with who will or won't do that guest. It's about the fact that they can't do it. If they could just handpick whoever they wanted from 40,000 people enrollment wouldn't have dropped for the last 8-10 years. If they could handpick athletes, prominent catholic athletes wouldn't go to QHS.

Im not touching the privileged kids thing. We've been down that road before. Regardless the only argument here that matter is the IHSA argument. That argument was solely based on the 30 mile radius that private schools could draw kids from. If they were concerned with how many kids were in each district they would have opted to use the population sliding multiplier that was suggested on multiple occasions. I'll debate the IHSA's reasoning from here on out if anyone wants to, but I'm not getting into all these other reasons that random people throw out there because they don't factor into the decision regardless of who is right or wrong.

[fanofthegame]

Well it could be the Holy water, or maybe if you get your ear pulled by a nun, ( I say this with respect to discipline-I had nuns for cathecism classes at St. Thomas) it will make you grow. The undersized Raiders is an exception to the rule in my memory. Most years you have had some bigs in your lineup each year. Side note, of the kids who started for Pittsfield in 1991 state champs team, I believe only point guard went all the way through at Pikeland schools. Not all moved for basketball, and the Baker stud was a preachers son who got moved to Pittsfield. So see, religion had something to do with their run also. And today, it is much harder to get the Blab boys caliber to stay with you for a year. Plus the island boys are watched much closer now. Still thought the Warsaw run was better befor e the old coach thought he needed to add players from a couple thousand miles away. Or CPC with Merv.

QND had a nice run of big kids for a while. Your memory goes back further than mine, but I'm thinking Butch Schutte in 98, McNiel in 99 then my memory goes blank until Kyle Schutte in the early 00's and Emerick, Joe Terwelp, and Ryan Fesler in 04 and 05. Every single one of those kids named though was a Catholic Quincy kid.

[radiowaves]

Joe Womble? I am not a homegrown and in fact lived in Paloma and Camp Point growing up, and was in Jacksonville during the Kaufmann years. But Junkie, many made the move to Pittsfield from the area, while few needed to be contacted by anyone to make the move. Sweeting was playing on a teram with too few to even scrimage in practice. Brawdy and his father made a decision on their own, MDid PHill have a good program for Johnson to play in and did their family compare any other aspects. I do not know many of those folks so I have no dog in this hunt. If the co-op had not happened, would some of the WP players have moved to Barry? Were all of the WP state team kids kindergarten students in the WP system? Players move in to the most succesful area but they have to move or pay tution period. And the Hart kid moved from PHill and the Wolves beat his Saukee team.

[bballjunkie1]

We all know the Brawdy situation was not correct. Its not even an arguement. That was a mess and he should not of been allowed to play. They "rented" a place in pfield to call home. BUT stayed in Gville. I know that as he was someone that I talked to in those days. I think Barry would of been real happy to have a few of the WP kids before the co-op. Co-op did not happen until after Coy Bainter graduated. Alex Smith, Trent Garner and Ryan Byers would of gave that team the depth it needed.
As for WPs state team, Mosley grew up there, Billings did, craig did, Hall did, Marty is the only import as he moved from Barry to WP in 5th or 6th grade. My point with my post is we all like to hammer QND, which is fun to do, but there are plenty of teams in the area that have had outside kids playing on their team. Most move to make it legal, but we all know parents think little johnny that is 6 foot in 8th grade is the next great one.

[Titanfan89]

Haha, the holy water is good down in Quincy and the nuns pulling the ears on the kids stretched their necks out and made them a little taller. I used to think that there was something in the Nauvoo water when I was in school as they were producing some kids with height.

[Bigsportsballs]

Lets get rid of the multiplier and modify the game of basketball to even out the advantage that private schools have over public schools. I say give the public team the advantage on the court that the private team has off the court. For example, when Western plays QND, the court's boundaries don't apply to Western because recruiting boundaries don't apply to QND. So, Western can simply dribble out-of-bounds to avoid a trap, or pass through the spectators to break a press. No lane violations for Western either, as those boundaries are irrelevant also.

That should make it clear to all private school sympathizers how playing a game by a different set of rules affects the outcome.

[Titanfan89]

Don't forget to add no traveling and no double dribble for the public schools.

[Bigsportsballs]

No, no, no, Titfan, the game mimics life.

No boundaries off the court = no boundaries on the court.

[Titanfan89]

Ok, I can live with that. That means they can get the ladders out, have someone climb on the backboard and throw alley oops and have the person drop it in the bucket. Completely evens things out.

[Bigsportsballs]

bballjunkie1 - under your rules would we have had to add the population of Antigua to QND's enrollment when they had Lennox McCoy?

[bballjunkie1]

Bigsport I like your thinking.
Yes I think that QND should have to use Antigua. Wait maybe they should only use the village from which he was "rescued".
After watching all the high school games on tv today I think we should start a prep school here in the Tri-States. Any suggestions for School name, and also I would like to have some donations to get this started.

[guest07]

It has nothing to do with who will or won't do that guest. It's about the fact that they can't do it. If they could just handpick whoever they wanted from 40,000 people enrollment wouldn't have dropped for the last 8-10 years. If they could handpick athletes, prominent catholic athletes wouldn't go to QHS.

Im not touching the privileged kids thing. We've been down that road before. Regardless the only argument here that matter is the IHSA argument. That argument was solely based on the 30 mile radius that private schools could draw kids from. If they were concerned with how many kids were in each district they would have opted to use the population sliding multiplier that was suggested on multiple occasions. I'll debate the IHSA's reasoning from here on out if anyone wants to, but I'm not getting into all these other reasons that random people throw out there because they don't factor into the decision regardless of who is right or wrong.

I'm not going to get into an IHSA debate with you. That's the same group that wants officials to measure stripe width on uniforms. There's no sense in trying to make sense of anything that they dream up.

[bballjunkie1]

IF you ask me QND is in the right Class right now in every sport.

[German/Irish_67_9]

I tried to stay out of this conversation.. i am one of those extreme views that will fight this til my death. Not only did the southern half of the state take a hit for the benefit of Chicago public leagues but they were almost affected more than those powerhouse Chi-town non-boundaried schools. My two cents is this.. and then i'm done.. i hope..
If you want proof of recruitment you aren't going to find it. Give me a student and i GAURANTEE i can tell you his or her backround and their affiliation with QND. Or you can just go ask the QHS bball program how that all works. Lol
If you truly can't handle playing the style of competition a school like QND brings to the table then i'm not sure you should be competing at all.
It only took QND and other smaller private schools 3-4 years before they were starting to compete for postseason glory in a lot of sports.. so not sure what the point was at all.
A school in Chicago has a man with an office who calls himself a "recruiter.." but considering no such man exists at a school like QND (other than the brochure they give to the kids at the parochial grade schools in Quincy) than wheres the fault.

I've been over this with many many people and the outcome is always the same.. you can't change my mind and i can't change yours.
Believe what you want to believe but sometimes i wish the kids at private schools were given the REAL credit where its due.. like their test scores and academic acceleratioin as compared to the public system. No offense to anyone but THAT is the reason kids step foot in those schools. How about the required service hours QND and most private school students are REQUIRED to achieve. Or maybe how 95+ percent of grads go on to achieve college degrees. Isn't that the reason you want your kid to go to school whether its $5000 or $5.. Speaking from personal experience i never really had a choice of where i was going to school.. my parents wanted me at QND. I wouldn't have changed that. Nor would a lot of students at that school.

Thats all i have to say. No matter how it pertains to the conversation. peace

[guest07]

I tried to stay out of this conversation.. i am one of those extreme views that will fight this til my death. Not only did the southern half of the state take a hit for the benefit of Chicago public leagues but they were almost affected more than those powerhouse Chi-town non-boundaried schools. My two cents is this.. and then i'm done.. i hope..
If you want proof of recruitment you aren't going to find it. Give me a student and i GAURANTEE i can tell you his or her backround and their affiliation with QND. Or you can just go ask the QHS bball program how that all works. Lol
If you truly can't handle playing the style of competition a school like QND brings to the table then i'm not sure you should be competing at all.
It only took QND and other smaller private schools 3-4 years before they were starting to compete for postseason glory in a lot of sports.. so not sure what the point was at all.
A school in Chicago has a man with an office who calls himself a "recruiter.." but considering no such man exists at a school like QND (other than the brochure they give to the kids at the parochial grade schools in Quincy) than wheres the fault.

I've been over this with many many people and the outcome is always the same.. you can't change my mind and i can't change yours.
Believe what you want to believe but sometimes i wish the kids at private schools were given the REAL credit where its due.. like their test scores and academic acceleratioin as compared to the public system. No offense to anyone but THAT is the reason kids step foot in those schools. How about the required service hours QND and most private school students are REQUIRED to achieve. Or maybe how 95+ percent of grads go on to achieve college degrees. Isn't that the reason you want your kid to go to school whether its $5000 or $5.. Speaking from personal experience i never really had a choice of where i was going to school.. my parents wanted me at QND. I wouldn't have changed that. Nor would a lot of students at that school.

Thats all i have to say. No matter how it pertains to the conversation. peace

I think you've made a good arguement for some sort of multiplier. I don't believe for a second that QND recruits. But how many kids go there who have parents that are drug-dealers? How many kids go there that don't know who their father is? How many kids go there that can't afford a pair of tennis shoes to play basketball?

The point is that ALL of the underpriviledged kids apply toward the enrollment of public schools, but unfortunately those students don't contribute anything to that school. QND doesn't have to deal with underpriviledged kids. They are at QND because their parents want what's best for them. Unfortunately, that's not true for many public school students.

Is that fair? Is that an even playing field? I don't think it is.

[German/Irish_67_9]

"Privelaged" can go a lot of ways captain.. and you have to remember, if you didnt know, that QND houses some less fortunate students as well.. its not like every kid at that school drives a Lexus and is going to be the CEO of some financial power someday.. they're pretty normal kids.. The GIFTED that i thinnk you're trying to hint at are the ones up north.

Is life an even playing field, guest? Where have you been in the past, oh, 100 years where everything is an even playing field?

Besides. for a lot.. oh 55,000 or so.. QND is an option. Its not like they won't help you if you CHOOSE to send your child their. Maybe you don't live in an area where you're capable of attending QND but if its so bad at those public schools (which is all i ever hear about - the bad students and the underprivelaged students) then i would be making my choice to at least try and get my kid into a school like ND. Personal choice is the biggest issue the IHSA doesn't understand. Catholic and Private high schools aren't set up to be staircases for "athletic success." Some people in this world just feel its necessary that their child is granted the option to attend such schools. As far as the whole "we have to let everybody at our school play said sport" argument. I dont buy that for a second. QND works with what they got. and what they got is a bunch of families who send all 5 of their children through that school year after year.. just like your school. Is it really the right of some wishy adults to scam these students b/c of where their parents chose for them to attend high school? Take out the sports and the underpriveelaged/privelaged, all the nonsense that goes along with this multiplier.. and your left standing with some kids at certain said high schools in this state that are considered at "fault" for excelling on the football field. Your kids try their hardest and so does QND's and so on. This is why i hate this argument. This is why i dont understand why it matters. The best win.. is it always a private school? Heck no.. But i'm sorry lil' ole Warsaw or Liberty or Payson can't win a title. I really am. You, nor i, nor anyone in this state can help that. The multiplier is a finger pointed straight at those who try and give their children a good foundation. If you can't understand that than i'm not sure i need to be discussing this with you.

[wolverine55]

Almost all of your posts on this topic are reasons for a multiplier. In that thread you even bring up the population advantage QND has. You yourself stated that for 55,000 people its an option. I don't know the exact population of the towns and villages that make up the WH co-op, but I know it's no where near 55,000. Personally, I think this is one of the few things the IHSA does right. I'm not in favor at all of separate public and private postseasons like some states have, but there should be some sort of multiplier in place and actually, that's because of a lot of the reasons you state.

[guest07]

"Privelaged" can go a lot of ways captain.. and you have to remember, if you didnt know, that QND houses some less fortunate students as well.. its not like every kid at that school drives a Lexus and is going to be the CEO of some financial power someday.. they're pretty normal kids.. The GIFTED that i thinnk you're trying to hint at are the ones up north.

Is life an even playing field, guest? Where have you been in the past, oh, 100 years where everything is an even playing field?

Besides. for a lot.. oh 55,000 or so.. QND is an option. Its not like they won't help you if you CHOOSE to send your child their. Maybe you don't live in an area where you're capable of attending QND but if its so bad at those public schools (which is all i ever hear about - the bad students and the underprivelaged students) then i would be making my choice to at least try and get my kid into a school like ND. Personal choice is the biggest issue the IHSA doesn't understand. Catholic and Private high schools aren't set up to be staircases for "athletic success." Some people in this world just feel its necessary that their child is granted the option to attend such schools. As far as the whole "we have to let everybody at our school play said sport" argument. I dont buy that for a second. QND works with what they got. and what they got is a bunch of families who send all 5 of their children through that school year after year.. just like your school. Is it really the right of some wishy adults to scam these students b/c of where their parents chose for them to attend high school? Take out the sports and the underpriveelaged/privelaged, all the nonsense that goes along with this multiplier.. and your left standing with some kids at certain said high schools in this state that are considered at "fault" for excelling on the football field. Your kids try their hardest and so does QND's and so on. This is why i hate this argument. This is why i dont understand why it matters. The best win.. is it always a private school? Heck no.. But i'm sorry lil' ole Warsaw or Liberty or Payson can't win a title. I really am. You, nor i, nor anyone in this state can help that. The multiplier is a finger pointed straight at those who try and give their children a good foundation. If you can't understand that than i'm not sure i need to be discussing this with you.


Again, I agree with you completely. Parents of QND students want the very best for their kids. Pretty much every single one of them want that, or they wouldn't be paying the tuition to make it happen. I think that's terrific. But unfortunately, this world consists of some parents that don't really care if their kids succeed or not. Every single one of those kids ends up at a public school. Part of the enrollment of public schools is made up of kids who simply will never contribute anything to that school. That's the world that we live in.

And I do understand that everything in the world isn't always going to be "fair", and the playing field won't always be level. That's why I'm not entirely in favor of the multiplier. But that doesn't change the fact that QND has advantages over local public schools. And despite those advantages, our local public schools have managed some success of their own. In case you have forgotten, Warsaw did win a title. To my knowledge, QND hasn't. I'm not asking for your pity on behalf of small schools like Warsaw, Payson, and Liberty. I'm simply pointing out that there are some obstacles that those schools have to overcome in order to be successful. Obstacles that QND doesn't face.

[Titanfan89]

The multiplier is pointed at those institutions which have a potential advantage of pulling kids from a wider geographical advantage, whether they do so or not. I don't see a problem with leveling a playing field like that. Think about the numbers and statistics.

[PhotoGuy]

The point is that ALL of the underpriviledged kids apply toward the enrollment of public schools, but unfortunately those students don't contribute anything to that school. QND doesn't have to deal with underpriviledged kids. They are at QND because their parents want what's best for them. Unfortunately, that's not true for many public school students.

You are exactly on the mark here.

When I attended PHS, we had a large vo-tech department, probably 60 kids spending half the day out in the auto repair shop learning how to do body and fender repairs, rebuild engines and transmissions, one of several of these types of programs PHS has. How many people do you think attend the "auto mechanics" classes then suit up for basketball? Let me answer for you... NONE.

They are good kids, they are learning valuable life skills that will help them gain employment, but they contribute absolutely nothing to the ATHLETIC part of school life... except to count against the size number.

Additionally, each of these public schools has a significant population of "special needs" and "exceptional" students. Public schools don't get to pick and choose the kids who attend, they are open to ALL children, and that means pretty well every developmentally disabled kid in the district is in the public school system...

There are also a lot of kids that come from families that do not place any premium on excellence... kids whos parents are drunks, or chronically unemployed, or even unknown. Kids who grow up in the foster care system who HAVE no parents. Very few of these kids participate in ANYTHING at school, not athletics, not band, not drama... nothing. They are there to either get a degree, or to get old enough so that nobody cares when they drop out.

These are the kinds of people that parents at schools like QND are trying to get their kids away from. That sounds harsh, but I don't mean it that way. Look at QND... all the kids there pretty much come from homes where they parents care about their children, and are working hard to help their kids be successful. That's great! Really. Wonderful thing. It should be how EVERYBODY is. But... by sending their kids to schools with like minded other parents kids, they insure that their kids are in classrooms filled with other kids that are interested in education, are college-tracked, involved in the community and are thinking first and foremost about their future. Again, that's all good.

When you look at a school like QND... there isn't a significant part of the population of that school that isn't involved in one way or another... even if it is just showing up at the games and doing the "student section" thing. QND doesn't have to write off the 35 percent of its student body that are simply going to school, surviving the day, and going home... involved in nothing, interested in nothing but "just getting by".

I have never believed that QND actively recruits... but... it isn't really about active recruiting in a lot of cases. Up until the last couple of years, let's say I was a parent of a student who was a football player... somebody who I though could have a legit shot at college ball... and I lived in Quincy. Where do you think I would want my kid to attend high school? At one of the best football programs in the state at an excellent school like QND? Or do you think I would want him to attend a school with all of the aforementioned problems, and play on a perennially 1-9 QHS. You all know EXACTLY where my kid would be enrolled, don't you?

I would want to send my son to the place where he would have the best chance of success both on the field and in the classroom, and that would be QND.

That's not recruiting... that simply good parenting.

And that's why there is a multiplier.

[Titanfan89]

And that is the point, selective, gifted kids have that option in Quincy, and thus there is an advantage for QND being a private school in Quincy. They can get the cream of the crop as long as they pay the tuition, or have someone pay the tuition, or take two mortgages out for tuition, or whatever. QND's enrollment can drop but that doesn't mean the best athletes in Quincy still can't or won't go to QND.

[slapdmofo]

Or maybe how 95+ percent of grads go on to achieve college degrees. Isn't that the reason you want your kid to go to school whether its $5000 or $5.. Speaking from personal experience i never really had a choice of where i was going to school.. my parents wanted me at QND. I wouldn't have changed that. Nor would a lot of students at that school.



I hate the argument that a private education is better because of test scores and graduation rates. You simply can't compare a public school test scores to a private school test scores...it is not apples to apples.

German- Do you think those 95+ percent of grads that go on to acheive college degrees would have gotten those college degrees if they would have attended a public school? I would bet yes.

Not a big Private vs. Public debator...I don't care where you send your kid...but don't tell me the best education is at private schools because test scores are better.

[Titanfan89]

I went to a public school and was satisfied with my education. In public schools, you may have to deal with people who don't want to be there but that doesn't mean you don't get a quality education, unless the district is terrible and doesn't hire good teachers. The kids have to put the effort in.

[PhotoGuy]

Not a big Private vs. Public debator...I don't care where you send your kid...but don't tell me the best education is at private schools because test scores are better.

Test scores are going to be better at schools where only kids who are actually WANTING to go to college attend.

Not a whole lot of "fill in the test dots to make pretty patterns because I couldn't care less about college" types of kids going to private schools, but there are plenty of those in public schools.

Kids can be successful at any school they attend, or they can fail. Bottom line, it is up to the KID to succeed or fail.

OK, now I will stop hijacking this thread and we can talk about the multiplier again :)

[wolverine55]

We've never stopped talking about he multiplier IMHO, because most of these posts pertain the exact reasoning one is needed.

[fanofthegame]

I'm staying out of most of this because I've been over it all one too many times to waste my time again, but I do want to throw an alternate view point out there. As you all know, I am a QND grad. I loved my time at QND, and I want nothing more than to send my kids to QND some day. With all of that said, I think a few things are being either overlooked or just looked at from the wrong perspective.

When it comes to education, you get out of it what you put in. I can't honestly say to any of you that I think QND gives a better education than QHS. I don't believe that is true. If I am a parent in Quincy with a talented and motivated child, that is looking solely to prepare my student for college, they are going to QHS. Why? It's simple, if your kid is smart and motivated they will succeed regardless of what school they go to. At QHS my kid would have access to MANY more advanced level classes and college prep courses than at QND. Going to QND, I was able to take AP history, and had the option to take college Chemistry and Psychology. At QHS, I could have had access to enough college courses to knock out an additional semester of college. That is one less semester of student loans and one more semester of making money in the work force.

When it comes to athletics, why in the world, with the exception of football and girls basketball, would you send your kids to QND? QHS basketball is one of the most storied programs not only in Illinois, but in the nation! The QHS boys Golf program goes to state almost every year, and they had won 3 individual state championships in the last 7 or 8 years. Girls soccer is on the rise, boys soccer was nationally recognized this season and the list goes on. Even if QHS is only average in the sport your child plays, they will face the biggest schools, and the best competition. That makes it soo much easier to garner attention from colleges.

So why do I love QND, and why would I send my kids there? It's easy, it is all about the Catholic Education. The spiritual aspect is worth that much to me, and I would argue that is pretty clearly the main factor in why parents do send their kids to QND.

What does that all mean? Maybe nothing. It isn't really an argument for or against the multiplier. It just seems to me that all of you seem to think that any parent who cares about their child sits back and picks the private school with no reservations. I guess I just wanted to point out that it isn't that easy, and if you don't value the spiritual aspect of the school above all else there really is no logical reason to send your kid to school there AND pay a huge tuition check.

[guest07]

What does that all mean? Maybe nothing. It isn't really an argument for or against the multiplier. It just seems to me that all of you seem to think that any parent who cares about their child sits back and picks the private school with no reservations. I guess I just wanted to point out that it isn't that easy, and if you don't value the spiritual aspect of the school above all else there really is no logical reason to send your kid to school there AND pay a huge tuition check.

Nobody is saying that all parents who care about their child will send them to QND. We're saying that all parents who send their kids to QND care about their kids. That's not the case for public schools, unfortunately.

There are many many many good, caring parents that send their kids to public schools. Unfortunately, the enrollment numbers at public schools also consist of many kids whose parents simply don't care whether their child succeed at anything or not.

[fanofthegame]

Nobody is saying that all parents who care about their child will send them to QND.

That is fair enough. I suppose that really hasn't been said. I just wanted to speak directly to this notion that some of you seem to have that QND can line up all of the teens in Quincy and easily get the creme of the crop. I don't know how many high school aged kids there are in Quincy, but if you want to be realistic about who goes to school where you can't just look at whatever that number is.

The first thing you need to do is take that number and cut it down to what percentage is catholic, then cut it down further to what percentage is catholic and actually cares about their faith and is willing to dish out the tuition, then you can further cut out a small percentage of the remaining kids who excel at basketball, golf, soccer, etc. you can also cut out a small percentage for families who want their kids to have access to more college prep courses

You can add back to that number a small percentage of kids who aren't catholic that want to play football, girls basketball, and even a small percentage whose parents just would rather have their kids at a private school.

Look, I'm not trying to tell you QND doesn't have advantages. I just think this specific advantage of "drawing from 40,000" is ridiculously over blown. I realize, in theory QND can get any student from Quincy and the surrounding area, but if you think even half of those potential families have ever even considered QND you are nuts.

[Titanfan89]

I think the multiplier is fair and I will compare it to the co-op situations with the small schools. The small schools have to use the combined enrollments of all the schools that are in the co-op. Again, you are pulling from more resources to get kids and you should be adjusted for that (larger population base, the higher the class, same thing with QND). Of course not all the kids from the co-oping districts will play sports or do everything, but yet the co-ops schools are still assessed for those kids.

[fanofthegame]

I think the multiplier is fair and I will compare it to the co-op situations with the small schools. The small schools have to use the combined enrollments of all the schools that are in the co-op. Again, you are pulling from more resources to get kids and you should be adjusted for that (larger population base, the higher the class, same thing with QND). Of course not all the kids from the co-oping districts will play sports or do everything, but yet the co-ops schools are still assessed for those kids.

Titan, your comparison makes my point from the very first page of this thread. If a team co-ops, they use both schools enrollments. However if a school co-ops in football but not in basketball, the basketball teams enrollment stands on its own. It is the same thing I suggested for private schools. If a football team has 5 players from out of ditrict, heck yes, multiply them, but if the basketball team doesn't have a single kid from anywhere else why multiply them? I think we have lost sight of what this thread is. I'm not arguing for a lack of a multiplier, just proposing what I think would justify a waiver.

[bballjunkie1]

I think both sides make good points. But my question is this, Is QND in the correct class for each sport? I think yes, they are and should be in 2A in basketball, they are in the correct class for football, golf you name it. They are in there rightful place multiplier or not.

[Titanfan89]

But the question remains, should the non boundaried schools have a separate tournament altogether and get rid of the multiplier then?

[bballjunkie1]

But the question remains, should the non boundaried schools have a separate tournament altogether and get rid of the multiplier then?

Not in my opinion.

[fanofthegame]

I would certainly never suggest it. I know other states do it, but it seems absurd to me.

[Titanfan89]

That would be the only true way to level the playing field come tournament time. The IHSA has some big kahunas, but I don't know if they are big enough to do that.

[fanofthegame]

What states have separate tourneys? In those states what is the split on how many private schools exist and how many public schools? In those states is the private school tourney split into classes too, or is it just one big tourney? I don't know the answer to those questions, but in Illinois there are only 146 non boundaried schools. I don't think you can really split 146 into classes for state tournament play and if you don't have classes you have the Jacksonville routt's of the world competing with the Chicago Mt. Carmels etc...Is that really a level playing field or is it a level playing field for public schools? There is a difference.

[Titanfan89]

Maybe Illinois can have the private class and the public class, and then break each of them down into A and AA again, to keep things at 4 classes.

[fanofthegame]

Maybe Illinois can have the private class and the public class, and then break each of them down into A and AA again, to keep things at 4 classes.

Maybe, but I don't think member schools would be too happy about that. I'm not in love with the 4 class system, but do you think Payson and Camp Point want to go back to Competing with Macomb and Pittsfield in the post season? My guess is in most cases the answer is no. If it went to a vote, the teams in 2A and 4A now really have nothing to gain by going back to two classes and the teams in 1A and 3A surely dont want to be the little fish in the big pond again.

On the private school side of things, 2 classes with 73 teams a piece makes for 2 pretty small tournaments. Even further than that though, 54 of the 146 non boundaried schools are in the city of Chicago and thats not counting the others in the Chicagoland area. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense logistically.

[Stealth]

Being a QND grad you already know where I stand here and I think Fan did a good job summing that up. The thing I want to talk about it the issue of "privileged." I know as all of you do that there are many students at QND that dont have to worry about money or school or just getting by day to day. I am an example of one of those kids who didn't have that luxury though. I payed for my high school education. I payed for everything that I owned. I also made a strong contribution to a few different sports at QND, so its not just all of those rich kids who go to the camps and have the nice Jordan shoes. Im not trying to bring attention on me or anything, but I just want people to know that there are those people who struggle with money at QND. So just because QND has this reputation don't think that all of these kids picked QND to unload their large amounts of money on.

As the mulitiplier goes, I have had my ups and downs with it, but those are personal issues and I will not bring those in here. This topic has been around for a very long time now, but I am glad that at least there is a little more understanding on it and we now have a message board that keeps it clean. I like the fewer cheap shots taken now. lol

I think the idea of having seperate classes for private/public schools is an interesting idea. I just dont think that Illinois has the resources to do such a thing. And we can all see the state tournament now and some of the luster it has lost after the change to the 4 class system. I just know if it is a good idea to mess with it again. It will be interesting once more about this waiver idea comes out because it could be in some aspects. It could be a good/bad move and that remains to be seen.

[bballjunkie1]

I would say 2A schools would love to see 2 class system again. Then the likes of Pfield gets GP, Phill, WC, and Calhoun in regionals. I think you have it backwards as to who would want to go back to 2 classes. 2A and 4A would love it, so they could get some smaller schools back into their regionals. 1A and 3A would hate it. Teams like Oswego who made it to state last year in 3A would have very little chance if they were taking on 4A schools in regionals.

I hate the idea of splitting public and private. With 4 classes I think that the private schools are in the correct classes now.

[fanofthegame]

I would say 2A schools would love to see 2 class system again. Then the likes of Pfield gets GP, Phill, WC, and Calhoun in regionals. I think you have it backwards as to who would want to go back to 2 classes. 2A and 4A would love it, so they could get some smaller schools back into their regionals. 1A and 3A would hate it. Teams like Oswego who made it to state last year in 3A would have very little chance if they were taking on 4A schools in regionals.

I hate the idea of splitting public and private. With 4 classes I think that the private schools are in the correct classes now.

I agree 1A and 3A would hate it. Thats why I said they surely wouldn't want to be the little fish in the big pond again. I see what you are saying about 2A and 4A schools. My line of thinking there is while they might get small schools back in their regionals, they would have a harder time getting to state because they would still have all of the competition from their current classes plus the added competition of the smaller school who happen to be having exceptional years.

[German/Irish_67_9]

Did i mention i hate this subject. Lol
If you sat down and talked with myself or someone in the same boat as i ( a QND grad during the multiplier) i guarantee i could give you some reasons why all of this is a waste of time. Why no one can just accept what has been given them i will never know. Its like the IHSA multiplies tons of Private school kids by .65 more than a normal public school kid (bumps nasty ole' ND up a class or 2) and still no one is happy. Lets be blunt and honest here folks.. and i'm directing this at a few certain individuals who shall remain anonymous.. but lets just admit that you'll never be happy until your child or the children of your children don't have to step foot on the same playing surface as a kid from QND. Why? again, i can't answer that. Somewhere along the way people stopped caring that their child went to a school known for poor acedemics and poor athlectics and instead just decided to whine until they got what they wanted. To be nice.

My point is that this state has lost its small school dominance it seems. Somewhere along the line people moved to larger populated areas for jobs, money, opprotunities, etc and forgot all about the small towns. Quincy is merely one of those towns that got bigger. Is it really a concern of WH or Liberty or Barry who have NEVER seen the likes of a Peoria bball squad or a Mahomet-Seymour football team, a Naperville soccer program, or a Glenwood baseball team whether or not QND is forced to play even better competition than that week in week out ? I don't believe it is. I understand that QND is your biggest threat. QND wants to play the local schools, recently though, they've had to play schools double their size or more to compete. Pittsfield football isn't what it used to be.. QND moved on. Excuse us. All i'm trying to say is that with the way the IHSA is run.. the public schools are going to get what they want. And you did. But to keep it from looking like a straight prejudice move they opted to keep it simple. I don't blame them. The advantages you all bring up are simply unavoidable most of the time. No one from Quincy likes traveling to Peoria or Champaign every other week to play football but they have to. Just like Carthage doesnt like to travel more than 40 mins to kick some tail. Point being QND already faces obstacles that no one from this area has to deal with. They don't need added weight on them just b/c of a religious view they hold true to. And because the words Private and non-boundary hold WAY too much meaning in this state.

I've said it from the beginning and i'll say it til i finally lay to rest.. Winning (Success) in this state is deemed unfair. Success in the state of Illinois always has to be punished. For whatever reason. Someone is always crying and whining and someone is always smiling and smirking at the same time. Its just all rediculous. The multiplier was the IHSA's way of making you all happy.... and it has failed for the most part.... so try try again you say.. well i'm sure its coming just be patient.

[Angle]

This could be very simple to fix in my eyes. If I am not mistaken Renita Bunte was from Payson, why not take Paysons enrollment and add it to whatever sport she participates in. If they have a player from Unity Camp Point whereever. I dont think that the football team should be punished if the girls basketball team has a player from Payson. If QND didnt have the multiplier what sports would it affect?

I like part of that idea, really I do...but after thinking about it a while, I think all it really does is lead to cuts from teams solely based upon location. Obviously Bunte would have been "worth" the extra enrollment number, but what if you have a student from the surrounding area that is the 23rd member of a 26 person golf team, or a JV caliber Chess Club member, Basketball, Tennis, whatever player...I just feel that if the situation would lead to a change in classification for the school in that activity, that the athlete that is lacking is going to be probably about the only casualty. I know at QND and other schools in the area, they are trying to promote extracurricular activities, not shoe them away..... It would put the Coaches and Schools in a compromising situation I think because it's a lose-lose situation. Obviously it wouldn't always happen that way where it changed a class and that would be ideal but this was just something I thought about while reading your comment....

I agree with Stealth...I've been reading these boards frequently and saw this thread and just don't feel like I can say anything that will persuade anyone else, nor can I be persuaded by anyone else's opinion on the subject. Like German was saying, it is what it is and you learn to live with it. I am, however, very pleased that the people posting on this thread are not the same ones who would make the outlandish statements at a certain other board that would really cause a problem.

[guest07]

Did i mention i hate this subject. Lol
If you sat down and talked with myself or someone in the same boat as i ( a QND grad during the multiplier) i guarantee i could give you some reasons why all of this is a waste of time. Why no one can just accept what has been given them i will never know. Its like the IHSA multiplies tons of Private school kids by .65 more than a normal public school kid (bumps nasty ole' ND up a class or 2) and still no one is happy. Lets be blunt and honest here folks.. and i'm directing this at a few certain individuals who shall remain anonymous.. but lets just admit that you'll never be happy until your child or the children of your children don't have to step foot on the same playing surface as a kid from QND. Why? again, i can't answer that. Somewhere along the way people stopped caring that their child went to a school known for poor acedemics and poor athlectics and instead just decided to whine until they got what they wanted. To be nice.

My point is that this state has lost its small school dominance it seems. Somewhere along the line people moved to larger populated areas for jobs, money, opprotunities, etc and forgot all about the small towns. Quincy is merely one of those towns that got bigger. Is it really a concern of WH or Liberty or Barry who have NEVER seen the likes of a Peoria bball squad or a Mahomet-Seymour football team, a Naperville soccer program, or a Glenwood baseball team whether or not QND is forced to play even better competition than that week in week out ? I don't believe it is. I understand that QND is your biggest threat. QND wants to play the local schools, recently though, they've had to play schools double their size or more to compete. Pittsfield football isn't what it used to be.. QND moved on. Excuse us. All i'm trying to say is that with the way the IHSA is run.. the public schools are going to get what they want. And you did. But to keep it from looking like a straight prejudice move they opted to keep it simple. I don't blame them. The advantages you all bring up are simply unavoidable most of the time. No one from Quincy likes traveling to Peoria or Champaign every other week to play football but they have to. Just like Carthage doesnt like to travel more than 40 mins to kick some tail. Point being QND already faces obstacles that no one from this area has to deal with. They don't need added weight on them just b/c of a religious view they hold true to. And because the words Private and non-boundary hold WAY too much meaning in this state.

I've said it from the beginning and i'll say it til i finally lay to rest.. Winning (Success) in this state is deemed unfair. Success in the state of Illinois always has to be punished. For whatever reason. Someone is always crying and whining and someone is always smiling and smirking at the same time. Its just all rediculous. The multiplier was the IHSA's way of making you all happy.... and it has failed for the most part.... so try try again you say.. well i'm sure its coming just be patient.


In other words, you're not willing to acknowledge that QND has advantage over public schools. Advantages that have been clearly stated here, and not refuted.

That's fine if you want to live in denial about it. I couldn't care less if QND plays 1A ball or 4A ball. Nobody here can change it. But let's stop pretending that the playing field is level. It isn't.

Nobody is trying to prevent winning. When Nauvoo and Warsaw won back-to-back state championships, the IHSA didn't impose a multiplier on Hancock County, simply to prevent those teams from winning. It's not about holding teams back. It's about leveling the playing field.

[Titanfan89]

I liken QND to any of the prep schools that are in Chicago. Was QND formed solely for the purpose of sports such as Findlay Prep in Nevada, no. Does QND still have such advantages of these prep schools, yes. Does QND choose to take advantage of their status as a non-boundaried school, sometimes. Maybe a modified multiplier would work but again, the IHSA would have administrative issues in dealing with something like that every year and would most likely be invading the privacy of the private school kids because they have to dig into their lives to figure out where they live and what their situation is.

Does the multiplier level the playing field? I believe so just as co-op schools have to count enrollment of all the schools in the co-ops, even if there is only one kid from a co-op district at the end of the bench. Or even yet, even if there isn't even any kids out for the sport.

[fanofthegame]

In other words, you're not willing to acknowledge that QND has advantage over public schools. Advantages that have been clearly stated here, and not refuted.

Lol this cracks me up. There are like 4 QND fans that post on this board. German is the only one that will even respond to you because the rest of us have been down that road 100 times. Of course no one has tried to refute your "Advantages." God himself could come to your home and refute you, and you wouldn't hear a word of it.

[PhotoGuy]

God himself could come to your home and refute you, and you wouldn't hear a word of it.

Hmmm... I wonder if anybody here would actually be talking to God himself, if he were sitting in our living room sharing a cup of joe, about high school basketball.

After consideration, I really don't think I want to know the answer to that.

[guest07]

Lol this cracks me up. There are like 4 QND fans that post on this board. German is the only one that will even respond to you because the rest of us have been down that road 100 times. Of course no one has tried to refute your "Advantages." God himself could come to your home and refute you, and you wouldn't hear a word of it.

So you don't believe that most of the underpriviledged kids go to public schools? You're honestly going to dispute that? God himself wouldn't deny that.

[bballjunkie1]

I liken QND to any of the prep schools that are in Chicago. Was QND formed solely for the purpose of sports such as Findlay Prep in Nevada, no. Does QND still have such advantages of these prep schools, yes. Does QND choose to take advantage of their status as a non-boundaried school, sometimes. Maybe a modified multiplier would work but again, the IHSA would have administrative issues in dealing with something like that every year and would most likely be invading the privacy of the private school kids because they have to dig into their lives to figure out where they live and what their situation is.

Does the multiplier level the playing field? I believe so just as co-op schools have to count enrollment of all the schools in the co-ops, even if there is only one kid from a co-op district at the end of the bench. Or even yet, even if there isn't even any kids out for the sport.

Case in point would be the Liberty-Payson girls last year. If I am not mistaken, Dakota Flesner was the only girl on that team from payson. But since they were co-oped they had to combine the enrollment and be in 2A, win a regional and then lose a close game to WH that gets second. Now, take Dakota off that team and put them in 1A I think we might have a state champ in Liberty. Or if Dakota would of just moved there and the schools did not coop I would almost promise you they win state in 1A. AS had been stated 1,342,823 times both sides have valid points. German wants to get testy about this whole thing, but even if we take the multiplier out, what class would QND be in for every sport? They would still be in 2A for basketball, they would be the same in baseball, golf woudl be the same. My guess is they might drop one class in football. So I guess you would get away from schools you cannot seem to get over in postseason.

[fanofthegame]

So you don't believe that most of the underpriviledged kids go to public schools? You're honestly going to dispute that? God himself wouldn't deny that.

I don't believe for a second that you don't know my views on the subject considering the amount of times we debated over on KHQA. As I offered there the last time this came up, I'll be glad to discuss it via PM if you want, but my guess is your only incentive for discussing it is a public forum for you to beat the dead horse in.

[PhotoGuy]

OK, I am the most guilty person here on this thread (I should know better...), so I take the blame for it... but... what say we move away from what God would or would not think, do or say... this is a sports forum, religion and politics have their own forums on the internet...

(A reader of the forum commented to me privately, rightly so, that we were pushing the rules on this).

[guest07]

I don't believe for a second that you don't know my views on the subject considering the amount of times we debated over on KHQA. As I offered there the last time this came up, I'll be glad to discuss it via PM if you want, but my guess is your only incentive for discussing it is a public forum for you to beat the dead horse in.


I don't recall what your position is. I've heard lots of different positions. I'm sorry if I don't remember yours specifically. Frankly, I have nothing to discuss via PM. Either you think that the vast majority of underpriviledged kids go to public school or you don't. I really don't see a middle ground here.

[Lost Soul]

I don't recall what your position is. I've heard lots of different positions. I'm sorry if I don't remember yours specifically. Frankly, I have nothing to discuss via PM. Either you think that the vast majority of underpriviledged kids go to public school or you don't. I really don't see a middle ground here.

Look at the NBA, NFL most of them were underprivileded kids. What does that have to do with the multiplier? Lets get back on the real issues here.

[Titanfan89]

We could also interject what happens to the under privileged kids, such as the prep academies, college boosters, agents, etc.

It is amazing to me to find out all the creepy people out there. But, I do love the blind side story about someone who actually wanted to do something and not take advantage of a kid. If that is the true story.

[guest07]

Look at the NBA, NFL most of them were underprivileded kids. What does that have to do with the multiplier? Lets get back on the real issues here.


I don't know if that's necessarily true or not.

If you want to get back to the issue that most people *think* brought the multiplier about, that's fine. QND's enrollment has no boundaries. And even if they did have boundaries within Quincy, that's still a district of 55,000 people. Meanwhile, the Liberty's, Brown County's, and Warsaw's of the world are drawing from a district of about 1,500. Do I think that's why there should be a multiplier? No, I don't. But if you want to make that the issue, then we will. There are plenty of "issues" to go around. Take your pick.

[guest07]

We could also interject what happens to the under privileged kids, such as the prep academies, college boosters, agents, etc.

It is amazing to me to find out all the creepy people out there. But, I do love the blind side story about someone who actually wanted to do something and not take advantage of a kid. If that is the true story.

Blind Side was a great story. But there's a reason why it became a movie. Because it's such an unusual circumstance. The majority of underpriviledged kids fall into the cracks, and never contribute. And pretty much every single one of those kids is at a public school.

[Stealth]

I don't know if that's necessarily true or not.

If you want to get back to the issue that most people *think* brought the multiplier about, that's fine. QND's enrollment has no boundaries. And even if they did have boundaries within Quincy, that's still a district of 55,000 people. Meanwhile, the Liberty's, Brown County's, and Warsaw's of the world are drawing from a district of about 1,500. Do I think that's why there should be a multiplier? No, I don't. But if you want to make that the issue, then we will. There are plenty of "issues" to go around. Take your pick.

I just dont understand this argument that you have about the size of Quincy. Im sorry there are 55,000 people in the Quincy school district. Do you want to put a multiplier on QHS too? they draw from 55,000. Better yet lets put a mulitplier on the town of Quincy. Look the multiplier has its purpose. I dont think many of the QND people on this board are debating that. Im sorry I am just having trouble understanding why you keep bringing up these *issues* that have obviously been the reason that QND has been successful.

[fanofthegame]

I don't know if that's necessarily true or not.

If you want to get back to the issue that most people *think* brought the multiplier about, that's fine. QND's enrollment has no boundaries. And even if they did have boundaries within Quincy, that's still a district of 55,000 people. Meanwhile, the Liberty's, Brown County's, and Warsaw's of the world are drawing from a district of about 1,500. Do I think that's why there should be a multiplier? No, I don't. But if you want to make that the issue, then we will. There are plenty of "issues" to go around. Take your pick.

No, that isn't the reason for the multiplier either. The IHSA doesn't care what population is in what area. They treat all private schools equally, ie giving them all a blanket 1.65 multiplier. QND may have 55,000 in their area, BCC doesn't have that same number, nor does Breese Mater Dei, Jacksonville Routt etc and none of those schools draw from near the base that Chicago area private schools draw from. If the IHSA cared about population numbers they would have implemented some version of the population sliding multiplier. Several versions were suggested, and none were implemented. It's all about the 30 mile radius and the fact that players from other districs could potentially play for a private school. The actual population numbers are irrelevant as the IHSA recognizes that even if there are 5 billion people in that 30 mile radius, only the kids in the school can play.

[Titanfan89]

The Bloomington schools I think are a good example. How many of them are private and how many of them are public? I would think if you are a kid in Bloomington you could probably go to any of what 5 or 6 schools?

[bballjunkie1]

Lets end the arguement and go back to one class. that would make the most sense.

[Titanfan89]

I like 2 classes better.

[bballjunkie1]

One class we dont have to worry about a multiplier. Two classes we go right back to what do you do with QND

[Titanfan89]

Well if we are still worried about that, make it 2 classes, one private and one public.